Play Date with Catherine LaSota 

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Annmarie: Hey, I am so glad you're here. that time to grab your cup of coffee, settle in, and join me for another play date. Around here, we believe life gets a [00:01:00] whole lot richer when we make room for curiosity, creativity, and of course, a little bit more fun. pull up a chair, and let's get started. My guest today is creativity coach, writer, artist, and podcaster Catherine LaSota. Catherine and I first connected after I took one of her workshops, and what I loved about the workshop was that it wasn't just another conversation about productivity or getting more done. It was a conversation about creating the conditions that allow creativity to become part of your life in a way that's actually sustainable. Now, Catherine works primarily with artists, but as I listened to her teach inside that workshop, I kept thinking, This isn't just about artists. about anyone who wants to build a life with a little bit more creativity, curiosity, beauty, and of course, play in it," which is, if you've been listening to this podcast for any length of time, you knows exactly what we're exploring [00:02:00] around here. So today, I imagine we're going to get to chatting about things like winding paths and creative identities and letting go of other people's expectations what it really looks like to build a life that feels like your own. So Catherine La Sota, welcome to I Used to be Fun.

Catherine: Annmarie, I am so excited to be here and to have a conversation with you. What a beautiful introduction. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to have you in my workshop, and spot on with the idea of creativity in life sustainably, and this idea that it's not just for artists. I really think anything can be a creative practice.

I think that owning a business is a creative practice. I think that parenting is a creative practice, gardening. So it really does come into play in so many different ways. And I love the focus on fun. Thank you for that. I, I can't wait to see where this conversation goes.

Annmarie: We certainly all need a little bit more fun [00:03:00] in our life, uh, particularly right now. Things are pretty serious out in the world, and sometimes we forget that there still is joy and hope and wonder and awe out there. And so if I'm the person who's going to be a little here and remind people of that, I'm here for it. So let's talk about the course I took, which was called Build Your Creative Containers. as I mentioned in the introduction, what struck me was that you weren't talking to us about getting more done, whether as artists, as just creative people. were really talking about building that life where creativity has room to exist. So when someone comes to work with you, say, as a coaching client, what do you think they're really hoping for?

Catherine: Well, people come into creativity coaching and even come into my workshops for all kinds of reasons. And, sometimes there's a reason underneath the reason that we unearth together. an example might be somebody coming into coaching because they [00:04:00] haven't touched their manuscript for five years, and they want to get back to it.

They want to finish this manuscript. But there's so much more in there that is about claiming your identity as an artist, thinking it's okay to s- call yourself an artist and what it can look like, and getting entry points into the work that allow you to finish it. Because I do want people to finish projects.

It's important to them. But when you're just coming in with a productivity mindset, that's often some external voice that's giving you that deadline. And so I think when people come into the workshops, come into coaching with me, A lot of it's about giving yourself permission and finding the permission to do it the way you need to and want to

Annmarie: Recently had a look back at the first 12 episodes of this podcast, and the word that popped up over and over and over again was permission. I think as women, particularly midlife women, I'm a little [00:05:00] older than you, but we've lost that ability to give permission to ourselves, right? we allow for things for our children, if we're caring for our elderly parents, for our partners, for everybody else in the world, but giving ourselves that permission is huge.

And for somebody who has set her last manuscript down, not for five years, but for f- about five months maybe, you do have to find your way back into saying, "Listen, I can give myself time for this." Whether it's that or it's just straight up creativity and play in your everyday life. So awesome. I love to hear that there are more people out there trying to encourage that in other people

Catherine: Yeah, permission is huge. And also we have not, disclosed our ages to each other, but maybe you know how old I am.

Annmarie: I'm just guessing by the age of your kids, so I'm probably wrong.

Catherine: Okay, who knows? Who knows? Who knows? It doesn't, it doesn't matter. I think that, what is really relevant, something really relevant there is yes, this does happen with [00:06:00] women and also with people whose voices are traditionally or historically, I should say, underrepresented, have to live inside systems that they didn't create and learn how to be in that system.

And with women, a lot of times, yes, it is, it's caretaking. We mentioned kids. Like, there's... I'm at an age now where I have both elderly parents and young children, and there are a lot of responsibilities there, and I want to help that. But I also need to be parenting myself, and I don't, I don't know if this is going to come up or not, but I do also offer a regular workshop called Be Your Own Daddy, which I love

Annmarie: Let's just jump to that. I had written down a question about that because the title when I found it on your website, or I think it even came in one of your emails, me. I'm like, "What is that all about?" Because that is a, as a former copywriter, that is quite the title. me about it. What is it?

Catherine: Well, it's meant to be provocative a bit. I mean, it does [00:07:00] evoke different things, right? There's all kinds of ways that people use the word daddy. I mean to be humorous and cheeky with it. it can mean so many different things though, and I don't just mean like the who's-your-daddy kind of, connotations.

Also thinking about astrologically, the daddy planet is Saturn. It's the one that gives us our constrictions and constraints. But we can really work with those in interesting ways. So when I do a Be Your Own Daddy workshop, it's about becoming your own authority figure, and I think of daddy in a non-gendered way.

It's like being an authority figure in your own creative practice, setting the rules for yourself. also rewarding yourself as your own daddy. Like, you can do that for yourself. It's a, it's a permission-granting thing too, but daddy's going to give you permission, and daddy is yourself

Annmarie: So what are the voices that we're usually handing that authority over to? what are you finding?

Catherine: Oh my goodness, so [00:08:00] many. I mean, it starts out of necessity when we are born and we are children, and we need other authority figures to help us survive, right? And that can be good and bad. I mean, and h- raise your hand if you've been in therapy, talking, talking about your childhood. Your first authority figures are whoever your caretakers are, right? And you will get certain values instilled in those ways, and you can adopt them through life, or you can act in reaction to them and run from them. And in either case, it is something outside of yourself that set up this idea of like, w- what is the way to do things.

it takes a lot of practice to move away from these voices to find the one inside ourselves. But other, other authority figures, again, out of some necessity. I mean, we have jobs where we have to earn money, and we have to perform a certain way so that we can get the money to pay our rent, our mortgage, or eat food, [00:09:00] take care of our kids.

there are systems we live within constantly to be a society, and that's not necessarily bad always. It's just that when you get into doing creative work, it's a space where there aren't necessarily rules across the board. So what rules are you going to bring into it for yourself? Are they going to be somebody else's?

This is an opportunity where you can set the rules, and we are so out of practice doing that because we can't in so many areas of our lives.

Annmarie: It's really something to sit and think about is, am I applying rules that actually don't make any sense, that don't pertain to me? And so much of your work, it feels like, is about trusting your own path instead of someone else's. How do you help clients do that? How would you tell people listening today to start not only questioning the principles or [00:10:00] questioning the rules that you're following, but then trusting that path that you can kinda see but maybe looks a little scary, maybe you need a machete to cut down a few, uh, errant trees

Catherine: Yeah, I love the visuals. Thank you for bringing them in. well, the, m- I'm thinking about the workshop that you took, Build Your Creative Containers, and I talk about the emotional containers you need, the physical containers, sustaining containers, goal-setting containers, and these are all systems that we can set up for ourselves to, create conditions under which it feels as easeful as possible for us to create.

you asked the question about, well, if somebody comes in, how can they start thinking about listening or finding their own voice and trusting it's important to build spaces for yourself where you do feel safe or as safe as possible, because it's vulnerable to get in touch with your own voice. It's vulnerable to get quiet and say, " I'm in [00:11:00] charge now." That can be very scary, as you said, to have no one to answer to but yourself. You can't place blame outside of yourself at that point either, right? So, as I mentioned, these containers in the workshop that you took of emotional containers and physical containers, and it's important to set these things up.

Some of those, like the emotional containers in terms of who are the people you're spending time around, how are they, supporting your identity as an artist or not? Uh, what are the physical containers? That includes how you're taking care of your body. It includes the chair you're sitting in. It includes your tools of your practice.

Are they enjoyable to use? Bring back that word fun. We, sometimes think that things don't have value unless they are difficult, unless the work is hard, and then it is valuable, and that is such a point of friction in creating the work that is truly yours as an artist. Like, you should be moving towards the things that feel as flowing as possible and as easeful as possible, and that can be a [00:12:00] real mind trip.

So that's part of it

Annmarie: And speaking of the mind trip, I've been taking all of 2026 thus far to figure out what I want as kind of the path for the next five years. I'm old enough now, I'm kind of tired of the hustle culture and the entrepreneurial world, and I don't want a f- three-year plan, I don't want a five-year plan, but I want some n- I want a North Star. And I've been telling people as I've been going through this process that I don't want to do things that aren't fun anymore. And the negative feedback I get on that is really interesting to watch because people keep saying, "Well, there are so many things in life that aren't fun, Annmarie.

You're just not being realistic." And I said, "Let's, let's back up a little bit. There should be some level of joy in most things that you do." Like, yeah, is balancing out my QuickBooks fun, in quotes? No. Do I find some joy in having a project I can see the beginning and the end [00:13:00] of versus something that is a longer project like writing a book that feels like sometimes it's never ending? absolutely. And that's what I'm talking about. Like, fun doesn't have to be this big confetti cannons off thing, but it should be some things that we are finding some joy in

Catherine: I think you're pointing to something here about fun I find so important, and fun is not frivolity. Fun is not frivolous. It, it is essential. It is important.

Annmarie: I wrote down as you were talking about the containers and the people that are supporting you and the tools that are supporting you, and I think that this is so important beyond just what we do as an occupation and moving it into life. Like, are you surrounding yourself with people who do bring some levity, some hope, some awe into your life? Are you looking for the tools that not only impact your job or your [00:14:00] artistic endeavors, that are enabling ease in life outside of that? see that that really is impactful to the artists that you're working with as well, as if they're pulling, you know, from outside of just, "I need Pro Writing Aid to help me write my manuscript"?

Catherine: Totally. And yeah, this idea of there is yourself when you're doing the thing, and then there's the rest of your life, and how do they impact each other, I think it's really important for us to see them as interconnected, and how the rest of your life is going is going to affect, oh, this two-hour block of time you set aside to work on your book.

If the rest of your life is garbage and you're tired and exhausted, that is not going to be a good two hours. You can be working on your creative practice when you're not, producing the creative project or, or document. You know? It's- it's all connected, and I do talk about this a lot [00:15:00] with clients.

And something that you were saying earlier about, the importance of fun and people pushing back on, on what fun can mean, or, like, there's serious things in the world and th- you can't just be thinking about fun. And you mentioned something about, getting your accounting done, or there can...

there's moments of fun in checking things off the list too, or, like, doing a task that you're good at. I think a good way maybe to think about something feeling fun, and it's another word that I bring up a lot when I work with people, is a feeling of presence. Are you truly present in what you're doing?

Because a lot of the bad feelings about something happen when you're not, when you have something, a regret, or you're having anxiety about the future. If you're not fully present. You can be totally present in doing your accounting. It is going to be hard for you to be present or having fun, I'm putting quotation marks with my fingers here, in your accounting if the software you're using for your accounting is not intuitive to [00:16:00] you, and you don't like how it's set up, and you're fighting with it the entire time.

Like, get tools that work for you. Or if this is... If you're running a business and you have accounting and that's just really not your strength- Does it make sense to hire somebody to do your accounting? This is all part of, like, showing up as present as possible in what we're doing, and not be thinking about some other problem while we're, while we're dealing with the problem at hand.

I talk about this a lot with parenting, too, about the division of, I have this artistic project I really want to work on, and I'm a parent to two elementary school-aged children. They require a lot, and I love being with them, but if I am with my kids doing something and I am thinking about the other thing that I need to get done in my creative life, that's not good for anything.

Like, I, I'm not there with my kids. I'm not going to be doing the project in that moment. But if I can practice being present building a Lego thing or, like, making [00:17:00] dinner, or any time I can practice being totally present, it's building that muscle of practicing presence, which you can then apply to when you do have that two-hour chunk or 15-minute chunk of time to work on your book

Annmarie: People that have been listening to this podcast from the beginning, they know that I struggle with the two P words: patience and presence. I am super good. You want me to analyze what's happened to you over the last 10 years, or you want that 10-year plan? I'm your girl. But to live present in that moment is really difficult for me, and I think some of it has to do with the patience. But the thing that kept coming up when you were talking about that, and I, feel like I ran across this word several times on your website and through the course, is sustainability. So a lot of us have built these lives that are productive, but they're not sustainable. we set up systems to be present, to do different things, to spend time inside of our [00:18:00] creative and artistic endeavors, but we can't sustain it.

So what would you tell us about adding sustainability to all those practices?

Catherine: question.

Annmarie: it?

Catherine: Yeah, yeah. sustainability is so important, and I also want to acknowledge that the productivity side is not necessarily to be completely pushed away because there is a pleasure in finishing things, and I want to make sure to be clear that sustainability is not just about, uh...

W-well, no, it's, it's not just about setting up a thing where, like, I feel good all the time. It als-also about getting things done. And so, if it's not sustainable, I find most frequently if something is not a sustainable practice for somebody and they're, like, on the edge of burnout or they have burnt out, it's because the systems they set up were not built from their own values and their own, needs.

We all [00:19:00] have different needs within the same family, within the same friend group. We have different physical needs, emotional needs, different constraints, and how can we build a sustainable practice that also has you meeting your goals enough time? Like, set goals that are truly achievable that you enjoy because that is how you start to build that trust of your own vision that you mentioned before, like hearing your own voice and how do you trust it.

Well, you do have to be able to check things off a list sometime to feel like, "Well, there's a reason I'm doing this. It's actually working."

Annmarie: Keep bringing this back around to personal life too, since we're talking about on this podcast we, we really want to open people up to things other than work. And so when, if we're talking about creativity and play outside of work endeavors, artistic endeavors, whatever that may be, I think that habit habits create [00:20:00] sustainability have to be practiced for that as well. If you're s- if you're a woman who hasn't allowed yourself time for yourself, playtime, time with your friends, whatever it may be, for years, that also requires what you were talking about

Catherine: Absolutely, and practicing those things across different areas of your life feeds the creativity as well. Like, letting yourself eat the thing you want to eat for dinner 'cause that's what's nourishing to you and that's what you enjoy, or paint your room the color you want to paint it.

Like, these little gestures, and that's e- or even just taking a walk. I'm not... It doesn't have to be a big thing like a project, like painting your room. But doing things that are, again, going back to this idea of being your own daddy, if you have a desire and you can meet it for yourself, you start to realize that you're capable and that your desires matter.

And [00:21:00] those two things are so important in the creative process. Across life, yes. You should do them across life, and then it comes back to, like, you actually get your creative work done because you believe these things

Annmarie: And you get back to your own path, right? Because you're making choices for yourself, and you're not thinking about, "I want to paint this room pink. Will my partner like this? What is this person going to think? Is this going to be a good podcast backdrop?" Bring those joys into your life because you find them joyful, and stop worrying so much about the external feedback you're going to be getting from other people.

Catherine: Yeah. And I mean,

Annmarie: fill our own cups

Catherine: we have to fill our own cups, and also, to be clear, we are a social species. Relationships are important. We can't just be like... Fuck you, I'm going to do whatever I want, and not consult with you."

Especially if you're cohabitating with somebody, and you decide to paint the whole place purple, and they're like, "I really do not like that color." uh, I love purple, by the way, but I would not paint my house [00:22:00] purple. so y- you know, just to keep in mind, there's also this idea of relationship, and we are in relationship, and we practice being in relationship with people in our lives who are important to us.

And those are skills that we can turn on to ourselves. I talk about, like our relationship with ourself, but also our relationship with our creativity. This can be our relationship with other parts of our life. It could be our relationship with parenting. It could be our relationship with our job.

But if you start to view things in terms of relationship, you can think of, "Well, what am I expecting from the other half of this relationship? What am I giving to the other half of this relationship?" And these are questions you can bring to... I'm going to keep coming back to the idea of a book, 'cause it's, it's just one kind of creative project.

But what expectations do you have for this book in your life? are you... Are you showing up for it? Have you been away from it for so long that you guys haven't had a little date in a while, and you need to like maybe just get to know each other again before you can expect that you're going to be able to revise an [00:23:00] entire draft, if it's been a while?

So just to think in terms of relationship, too, yes, it's important to listen to ourselves and to not feel like we need to gain approval from everybody to do things that are joyful to us. But like that, bringing in that idea of relationship can help us tease out what we need also.

Annmarie: Love that, and I will take that question to my manuscript when I pick it back up. Like, are you showing up for this? Are you being a good partner? Are you doing the work it takes? Because I do believe in reciprocal relationships. Absolutely. What I'm saying is don't abandon yourself because somebody else wants to paint the house purple and you hate it.

So there is that, that balance of holding space for yourself while still being in connection with other people, because as humans, we are 100% hardwired for connection. It is really at fundamentally what brings us, I think, the most joy, is to be able to have that kind of community [00:24:00] and feel at home in it.

And obviously, that brings us back to one of your containers, which is the physical and the emotional with the people you have around you and where they're meeting you and so forth. I'm going to change directions a little bit for us here, because the other thing that drew me to you is your long list of all the things you've done in life, and we have that in common.

My life, my career has not been linear. people from the outside might think it doesn't make sense. I can see the path through. a lot of chapters and Maybe messy. Looks messy from the outside once in a while. I would like to know when you were going through, you can tell us a little bit about all the creative versions of Catherine, but as you were going through those versions of yourself, did they feel connected?

Like I said, I could feel the thread. Or do you think how they all fit together is something you can only see in retrospect?

Catherine: Yeah, I [00:25:00] love how you talked about this in terms of how it can seem really messy on the outside with somebody looking at it, but you see the thread. And, we come through these systems, we go through school. we do things to get grades. We get a degree or a diploma or whatever. We have these very linear trajectories, and if you succeed in school, it does not mean you're going to succeed in life because life is not school, and you really do have to forge your own way. And I, I will say that I don't know that I always saw the thread in the same way that I see it now as I was going through the different things. I did know I had this burning desire to be an artist, and there was that consistent desire.

But for me to really claim and understand who I am as an artist probably took some retrospective looking at, like, how everything talked to each other as I moved through it and to be able to talk about my path in a way that feels coherent. I couldn't [00:26:00] do that necessarily in the moment, which I think is okay.

I mean, I, I moved to New York City in the late '90s, right after college, to be an artist in New York City. that was the definition for myself of what I was doing. That is not a specific individual definition. That is really broad strokes, right? So I really floundered, and I also had to try a lot of different things, and what did it even mean to be an artist?

Like, let's investigate that because it's not the same for everybody. And when you come into a place like New York City, where I've now been for almost 30 years, there is so much ambition in this city, and people are at the top of their game in so many different areas. You are never going to be the best at something.

So that can't be your metric like it was in school. It can't be the, how can I get A+ because you, that's not going to be happening. So, yeah, there were some rough [00:27:00] times there when I went through the different iterations. If, if, if there's anything specific that you would like me to talk about in terms of what those iterations were, I'm happy to.

Annmarie: I'm curious about multiple degrees. You have two MFAs,

Catherine: Mm-hmm. Yeah

Annmarie: I would love, and I'm sure people listening would love, because sometimes we feel like we don't know enough, so we need to go back to school. We're not complete enough, we need to go back to school. Did you seek out multiple masters because you felt that way, or was it a way to actually fully embrace who you are and what your skills are?

Catherine: Well, I'm going to be real with you about the motivations in getting each of those, um, because I, I am glad I have them. I did learn a lot. I made relationships. I do honor them as real credentials in my life. I have an MFA in sculpture from Parsons. I have an MFA in creative nonfiction from Queens College.

but the reasons I [00:28:00] went into each of them, I mean, People go into MFAs for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes it's to get a credential for a certain thing, like they want to teach, or they think they need it in order to call themselves a writer or an artist.

There's all kinds of reasons. The reason I went for my first MFA at Parsons, I think had a lot to do with claiming identity and proving something To myself and probably to other people, which I don't think is the purest way of going through an artist's life, but it was a necessary step for me. When I was in college...

This is, this is a deep cut you're getting here, Annmarie. When I

Annmarie: it. I love deep conversations. I have no time for small talk,

Catherine: All right, great. Well, you know, I, Art's been a part of my life since I was a child. I took art lessons when I was a kid. My m- my mother taught piano lessons, and the piano teacher... Or my mom was the piano teacher, and the art teacher swapped kids to trade lessons, and I took art lessons as a young [00:29:00] kid and always drew.

I was drawing before I was talking and, it was always a part of my life, very important to me. And then I went to this science and technology high school because I tested into it and I was smart, and, like, that's what the smart kids do. And, I started college as a physics student. I was a Dean Scholar in physics, partly because I had some kind of idea that to live up to my full value, I had to combine all the different parts of me.

And I, I loved art, but I was also good at science and math, and how do I do all of it? And then I had this idea that I was going to be an architect, and there were parental conversations that led to the physics thing. I was also accepted as a mechanical engineering student at a bunch of schools. It's a crazy path.

I quickly realized I didn't want to be around a bunch of physics majors my entire college career 'cause it's not what... I wasn't in it for physics. I was in it trying to figure out how I could justify existing in the world, and that is not a [00:30:00] reason to do something. So, I did end up finishing college with two degrees, a bachelor's in studio art and a bachelor's in art history, and I always wanted to have a genuine art school experience 'cause I was at a state university.

It was, it was great, but I wanted to be in art school. So me applying for an MFA at Parsons was about wanting to say, "No, I'm shedding that old thing. I am an artist. I can be in art school." I'm still paying off the debt, Annmarie, from that degree. But by the time I got my second MFA In writing, that was relatively recently, and I had already established my s- I mean, relatively recently, I think I finished that one in...

Did I finish that one in 2023? I did it very slowly over time. I did, like, one course a semester. I was lucky to be in a program where I could do that. and because I was also-- my kids were very young then, and, a lot of it was online because it was during lockdown, which is the way, it was a, how I was able to fit it into my life.

[00:31:00] this is an important note, actually. If you see somebody's resume and you see these things they've done, like, there were certain conditions under which it was possible to happen. Like, how did you raise kids and get an MFA? Because I happened to be at a school where I could take one class at a time online.

You know, it, it's not possible in every scenario. When I applied for my MFA in writing, it was not because I needed to do that to feel like I was a writer.

I didn't need to do that to claim the identity as a writer. I'd already been writing for a long time. I'd been taking writing workshops for a long time. I'd worked with a bunch of different literary organizations. I, I had been writing a reading series that was really popular. Like, I had... I felt like I was a writer.

But I knew some people at this program who kind of sold it to me to, like, "Check this one out," and I didn't apply to other programs. I just applied to that one because I thought it was really cool. It was in Queens, where I live, and the students there were amazing in that they had such [00:32:00] a diversity of different experiences.

It's in the CUNY system, in the City University of New York, and it was really special to be in a situation where people were also raising families, had full-time jobs. It was a scenario that was very different from my experience at Parsons, and we were also in classes where the translators and the poets and the fiction writers and the nonfiction writers were all in workshops together, and I thought that was super cool, and it was a unique experience for me to add to my writer self.

It wasn't a situation of, "I need to go here to claim the identity of writer." So there's a difference there.

Annmarie: It's fascinating from the standpoint of the different motivations for the two different degrees. But what I really pulled out of that, I wrote two things down, is you're allowed to explore, right? As a person, you don't have to be like, "I'm going to get this degree, and then I'm going to do X, Y, and Z with it." That sometimes learning for learning's sake is worth it. Sometimes it's [00:33:00] about, the other thing I wrote down, something that's about finding your people. Like, being in those classes, being around other people who are living, both diverse and similar lifestyles. You're learning from both. You're feeling supported by one.

You're learning from another, and you're not being siloed into certain path, it sounds like. So there's so much power in just that exploration. So whether you want to do something like this and seek out an MFA, that, to your point, fit into your life at that point from some very specific reasons. Or it's you want to go try pickleball, or I had somebody on the podcast not so long ago that one of the things she was doing was trying to play golf. Well, she didn't want to buy all the clubs first. She wanted to try it, figure out how to rent it, figure out how to explore that, and then see what lights you up, which is a little bit of like even those creative containers again, is, is this something that [00:34:00] I can spend some time inside or no, this isn't a fit? I mean, maybe I'm stretching the container metaphor too far

Catherine: I love pulling the container metaphor as far as as you want to take it. It's a really powerful one to use in a lot of different ways. But yes to this. I think it, I think a lot of what you're saying also brings up another word that It's all the P words. It's like perfection. This

Annmarie: Mm-hmm.

Catherine: have to do something perfectly or figure out what the final product is going to look like.

Yeah, you don't need to buy golf clubs if you want to try out golfing. it's okay to start with, just experimenting and also letting yourself do that. Follow your desires. They're telling you something. And y- because you have an attraction to a certain activity to try or a movie you want to see or like, "I want to read this book and I don't know why," you don't have to then say, "Well, it must be for this reason, and that means I also want to write romance.

And so that will be my next project, [00:35:00] XYZ." No, no, no, this is not anything against romance. I just threw a genre out of my head and said it.

Annmarie: that's good because

Catherine: but like, just to not have to have the reason why, the end goal why you are attracted to a thing, but just following your path and trusting that you're going the right way because you're following what is interesting to you

Annmarie: I think that's so important. The very definition of play is to do something that has no end goal. And so I've spent a lot of time reading about this and really feeling into, 'cause I'm motivated by checking the boxes, like a lot of people. But being able to do something without a specific end goal, or how am I going to monetize this, or anything like that, is so healthy, especially for those of us that have been successful through school, or, you know, the path in the beginning seemed more linear, more straightforward, and all of a sudden we got a fork. You know, leaning into that [00:36:00] is so powerful into how we carry ourselves through the rest of our lives

Catherine: Yeah. And it, it's again, it's that parenting oneself also, I think. If you are interested in something and then you need to think about the end goal for it, it's like you're trying to justify your interests. Like, you're not allowed to like a thing unless there's a reason why. It's, very loving for oneself to go, "Oh, you like that..."

I'm looking at a plant right now. I'm like, "You like, that plant that you saw at your friend's place and you think, 'I might like to try growing one of those.' Okay, but wait. Is it... Am I, Am I now, am I a gardener now? Am I, tending to this whole thing? How will it fit into the rest of the..."

It's like, if you had a child who came up to you and was like, "Look at that cool blah, blah, blah," would you be like, "Look at that cool bumblebee. Okay, are you going to study insects now? And you are going to get a d-" And this is like, "No." Like, yeah, that is cool. That is a cool thing. let's look [00:37:00] more

Annmarie: This immediately brings to mind so my husband is an academic, and people that know me know we have led many study abroad programs. And so I have a lot of people in my life that are 18 to and we spend four months with them, with them. I am not a parent, but I feel like I've parented many, many, many children. They've just all been 20 years old.

Catherine: Yeah. That's a, that's a, that's an age.

Annmarie: That is an age, but the piece that when you were speaking that it triggered in my mind is so many, and we culturally do this to kids, they think if they like something, it has to be their career. They think every decision they make is about, how is this going to fit my job? How... What is this telling me about where I want to work? And I've had so many discussions with them is, if you like to travel, it does not mean you need to be a travel agent. Maybe you take a job that sends you around the world. You know, even if they have [00:38:00] to tie it in that way, and then at the end of the day is you're allowed to have interests that don't generate revenue. I don't know where culturally as Americans we've picked this up, but this constant thing of where does this slot in? How is this productive? Will this make me money? Instead of like, is this fun? Is this giving me a break from what's making me money? Like, I wish we would slow down and allow people to really feel into their hobbies and their interests without it having to mean something else

Catherine: Yeah. I mean, well, I have some ideas about why this happens in America, and the way that value is tied to money so much, and the ultimate thing is to... is to make a lot of money. Like, this is, this is a goal in America. This is a, it's this capitalism. It's the person with the most power is the person with money because of the way our system...

I mean, it is true. People with money have a lot of power, so [00:39:00] that's tied into it. And, you know, one way to not feel powerless is to have more fun in your life, I will say. So that's a good reason to do it. And then also these, kids, these 20-year-olds you're talking about, these students, I'm just thinking about, you know, somebody likes something, then they have to think about how it fits into their career.

The, problem there is that you're just going to be going to predefined models of what careers are, and, like, we can think about this in terms of making money. Also, there's not going to be some innovative new path made unless you do it, and these things do happen. Like, follow your interests and find your thread, as we were talking about, and build a new thing.

It can happen

Annmarie: I love that. And I think those of us that are drawn to our own businesses and entrepreneurship, we feel that thread pull. And it's not always convenient, and it's certainly never easy, and oftentimes not lucrative. you can't deny it, right? You, the thread pulls enough that you have to look at it.

And if you feel that thread [00:40:00] pulling, no matter where it is in your life, I would encourage you to pay attention to it. Because again, it doesn't have to be something you monetize, but maybe it's something that brings great joy to your life, and you'd be missing out on that if you just keep ignoring what's pulling at you. But are running up against our time together, and we have talked a lot about artistic pur- suits, and creativity, and joy, and play. I want, the pun, I want you to paint a picture for us. It's a random Tuesday afternoon in your life. What does creativity actually look like in your life these days?

You know, not the ideal version, but the real version

Catherine: Yeah, it's funny because we're recording this episode on a Wednesday, so I can literally think back to yesterday and what was happening that afternoon, that Tuesday afternoon. I'm going to answer this by coming back to that idea of presence and how we approach every single thing that we're doing. I did a few things yesterday on a Tuesday, and some of them were related to my business, [00:41:00] and some of them were related to taking care of my kids, and some were other things.

And I, what creativity and creative practice looks like for me on a regular Tuesday is connecting with the space that I'm in. Like, I was literally in different physical spaces during the day. When I landed at one of them, I lit a candle and I pulled a tarot card. I mean, this is really, like, nitty-gritty, but ritual comes into play a lot for me in terms of thinking about how to approach life creatively.

I mean, even the ritual of we have a meal plan during the week with the kids. Like, that is a certain ritual, and when, on Monday nights, I know my kid knows who loves mac and cheese. She knows that's mac and cheese night, and she wants to help. And so the process of having her help and teaching her things about cooking, like that to me is also, it's a ritual that we do each week, and that becomes a creative practice, and that becomes part of the, like, understanding how to exist in the world that we both [00:42:00] have.

So I don't know. It's a, kind of a mushy answer to the question, but I hope I answered it with that.

Annmarie: Emoji answers are the best 'cause that's actually life,

Catherine: Yeah.

Annmarie: the fact that it feels like your life a flow to it, like, y- you know, that you're, you're honoring this part, you're honoring this part, and then you're finding a way to bring that together. And I've talked a lot about this in the past, that ritual and structure can be creative acts, you just said that as well.

So I want to wrap up with a question that I ask a lot of my guests, which is, there are a lot of women listening like they've lost touch with parts of themselves that used to feel curious or playful or creative, I'd like you to give them one gentle invitation to leave them with today about getting back to that person

Catherine: Yes, I love this. I think that a really gentle way to approach it is to not put a lot of pressure on that return. [00:43:00] It's about permission, it's about being gentle, but in a really practical level, I'm, I'm literally, like, closing my eyes and taking a breath right now, and even that, even taking a moment upon waking, or if you can't because you have kids jumping on you, as I often do, at some point that you know you can have to yourself to close your eyes for all of two minutes and take slow, deep breaths.

It's amazing what this can do for resetting your day and just having a quiet moment. And if you wanted, you know, extra credit, write on one page for two minutes once a day just whatever's in your head with no expectation that anyone else is ever going to see it. It doesn't have to be a lot. But we don't realize how much we're holding our breath all day.

We don't realize how much we're just like ticking through all the things that we need to do. To disrupt, even if you're commuting to your job and you take a different route, [00:44:00] can remind you of something that you have forgotten because you were stuck in the rut

Annmarie: I was Having a conversation this morning, and the thing that came out of it was the little things are the big things, and that's a little bit of what you're talking about right there is don't underestimate those small things that you can do in life. The person that connected us actually is my book editor, Kristen Tate, She was an early play date, and I asked her a similar question, and she's like, " I found real enjoyment out of just laying on the floor. Just lay on the floor for five minutes." And it's a little bit of what you're talking about, right? Like, take those moments, center yourself, and this doesn't have to be a big meditative yogic thing.

Just breathe a little bit. I am a shallow breather, and so this is one of the things that I constantly have to remind myself too, like slow down for five minutes, take some breaths, and you'd be amazed how much better everything is after that. So I appreciate that. [00:45:00] you have mentioned things. We talked about the Build Your Creative Containers course.

We talked about the Be Your Daddy course, and if people are with this, where can they find out more information about everything that you do?

Catherine: Thank you for the question. The best way, I guess, is my website, because that's where I have things updated, catherinelasota.com. But I do have some special things on offer there that you'll find, like, I have a, a free video interview series with artists I love where I ask them about their creative containers, and you can get that sent to your inbox if you sign up for it.

I offer these Be Your Own Daddy workshops and Creative Containers workshops throughout the year in different ways. but I also have free workshops from time to time, and I'm doing one on September 22nd in conjunction with the fall equinox, and it's going to be a full hour of diving into prompts inspired by the fall [00:46:00] equinox, finding balance in your creative life.

So I would love to see anyone there. And then you did mention that I'm a podcaster. I've hosted several over the years myself. Currently, one that I'd love to mention is Feed the Art, my podcast about nourishing your creative practice, and you can find that on all the different podcast platforms.

Annmarie: Love that. And the Creative Containers workshop that I took, you did a lot of prompts in that as well, you're very good at it. So if that is something that works for you, if you're listening and thinking, "Oh, I just need somebody to help me get started," like that was a Sunday afternoon for me. I took the time for myself, and the prompts really brought things forward for me in a way that it didn't feel like I was forcing anything.

It didn't feel like work. So definitely check out all of Catherine's stuff. I think it... you would enjoy it. I mean, I did, and I don't... wouldn't say that if I didn't. So we're going to wrap up today, and the piece that I wrote down from the conversation, and I [00:47:00] want people to take this, is you're never going to be the valedictorian of life.

You might have been the valedictorian in high school, but you're not going to be the valedictorian of life. So let yourself off the hook. Have some fun. some new things. Know that somebody's probably always going to be better than you at no matter what you choose. Maybe not. Maybe you're the best. But you don't have to be, and that's, permission-giving in and of itself, so. I want to thank Catherine for being here today. This was a really interesting conversation for me to have. I love these play dates. I always learn so much about it, and if enjoying the podcast as well, I'd love for you to follow or subscribe to the show and consider leaving a review. That helps more women find the show and join the conversation. And I also want to thank you for pulling up a chair today. I'll see you in a week. And until then, I hope you keep uncovering a little more beauty, a little more curiosity, yes, definitely a little more fun. [00:48:00]

I Used to Be Fun is hosted by Annmarie Boyle. New episodes drop weekly.

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