Ep 9: Play Date with Kate Buckmeier 

EPISODE LINKS:

Kate's blog post about The Grandma Project: https://katebuckmeier.com/the-grandma-project/

The Wonder Project: https://annmarieboyle.com/the-wonder-project/

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

ANNMARIE: Hey, welcome to our next Play Date. Today my guest is Kate Buckmeier, and Kate and I used to be neighbors, but recently a mutual friend invited us to a quilting evening, and yep, it's the exact same kind of quilting I talked about in the last Play Date episode. And when we were gathering, stitching away, is where I (00:01:00) first heard Kate mention what she's calling The Grandma Project, and as soon as she started describing it, I knew it was the perfect fit for this show, and so — Kate, welcome to I Used To Be Fun.

KATE: Thanks. Thanks for having me.

ANNMARIE: So for anybody hearing about it the first time, tell me more about The Grandma Project — what it is, and where the idea came from.

KATE: Yeah. So the idea came right around my 49th birthday — like, days around my 49th birthday. And it came to me just sort of fully formed. It was a project I did until just after my 50th birthday, and it was 12 months of activities, pastimes that my grandmothers, I either saw them doing or that I heard about them doing. And I did six months of my Grandma H and six months of my Grandma B. And they both had passed within the last seven, eight years (00:02:00) and, um, I had done some writing about my Grandma B before, and I was also looking for, you know, something to focus writing on, and this felt like a way to do that — a way to be kind of in the memories of them and also creating new memories.

So yeah, it came that way. And I just chose some activities, again, that I either saw them doing or that I had heard that they did. I grew up in a very small town with my grandmothers, both of them living in that small town, I spent a lot of time with them or hearing about them or being in their, you know, proximity. So I have a lot of memories with them.

ANNMARIE: I love that, and I love the idea of it being a way to look at turning 50 — like giving yourself something to move into that next decade with, but also continuing to create memories with people that have passed. So many times we don't know what to do when someone passes and (00:03:00) how to honor their memory, and even more so, stay connected to them.

So that is fabulous. And I absolutely want to get into the specifics a little bit more, but first — I noticed you wrote a blog post about it when you first started, and I —

KATE: Right.

ANNMARIE: — read that over the last couple days, and you said that it started with a spark that just felt right, which is what you were saying — it came fully formed.

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: And here's the thing we talk about a lot on this podcast — you also said that the responsible, second-guessing parts of yourself usually talk yourself out of listening to that insight. So what do you think was different this time?

KATE: I think it just came at the right time. I feel like I have been doing a lot of work with that responsible, sort of dependable part. And I have a lot of parts that are really strict with me. But something about this just felt like right timing — like I was ready for... ready for —

Well, it lined up (00:04:00) in that I love structure. Give me a challenge and I'm going to do it. Duolingo, like The Artist's Way. And then one book that I really resonated with a long time ago was The Happiness Project, which is kind of 12 months of "what can I do to find more happiness" by Gretchen Rubin. So that kind of structure was built into the project, and it just felt like, "I can do this." And I'm in this transition of launching these kids into adulthood — my son just graduated, so now I have two kids graduated from high school, one graduated from college. There was just something about me having this year of something that's for me, because the caretaker part also is really strong and, um, yeah, it was — it was a lot of those things. They all just kind of felt right.

ANNMARIE: Yeah, almost like a calling in a way. And what I want to pull out of that is — first of all, The Happiness Project was a book that I loved as well, and I still have it on my shelves, and I still refer —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — when you talked about The Grandma Project the first time, I went to that, and I also have a former colleague who did something similar called 50 Fun Things to Do Before You Turn 50 —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: That was probably 10 years ago or so now. But I do think that there is something — about 50, and I'm well past it now —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — that we really do look for that. And so much of that is that we are launching our children, right?

KATE: Mm-hmm.

ANNMARIE: That's the change. And so I love that you just leaned into this and did it — and you and I have both done professional organizing, so that structure piece of it —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — helps a lot too. It really does.

KATE: Right.

ANNMARIE: We've talked in the past on how play and creativity and those types of things need to have a freedom to them, but if you need structure to get started, I am —

KATE: Yep.

ANNMARIE: — all for it.

KATE: Yeah. Yeah.

ANNMARIE: Own it, girlfriend.

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: Well, and that's something that I think — when I say right timing — I had to tiptoe (00:06:00) through lots of seasons of trying on things that I could do for myself, like doing The Artist's Way and then doing an artist date. And that was like, "Are you kidding me? Take a day of the week to go do something that maybe doesn't cost anything but that is for me?"

KATE: I had to try on those things before I could get to this kind of a project where it was a full year. And it just felt like, yeah, right timing — 'cause I had practiced at doing little things for myself in this way, or doing little things that were challenging or risky or felt that way to me, stepping out of my comfort zone. And then, yeah, this was an extension of that.

ANNMARIE: I want to ask a question about that — why do you think it is so hard for women to give themselves time for themselves?

KATE: Hmm. I think it's our culture. I just think we've been conditioned to really be looking to the others, you know — looking to how you (00:07:00) can serve, how you can... Yeah, I just — like I said, I have a big caretaker part. And when I was young, I was very creative, and I'm very introverted. But I think that I got a lot of praise and connection — praise and, yeah, I guess, a way to, yeah, affirmation and a way to fit in by being, you know, really looking to what others needed.

My husband had suggested I should start a blog when my kids started elementary school. And one of my first blog posts was about trying to figure out why I didn't have a favorites list, and how hard it was for me to just say the things that I liked. You know, it was like actually putting out something that was just about me — it just felt wrong. Like there was some threat there, which I'm slowly getting over. You know, it just — it just has taken a long time to peel back the layers of, like, it's okay if you might be judged for that. It's (00:08:00) okay if somebody's disappointed if you don't show up for that.

I just feel like the conditioning around looking to others and what their needs are, and then the affirmation you get from that, is just really powerful — and especially for women. But I won't say that's just women. I mean, my husband works on that too. We work on it. Actually, he's a really good partner for me because we both play heavy roles in being dependable, responsible, always able to fix and solve. And so we continue to have to remind each other how to think about what we need.

I was having a conversation with a girlfriend just a couple of days ago, and I told her that the word "serve" is a trigger for me —

ANNMARIE: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

KATE: — but I really believe that we are here to make other people's lives better.

ANNMARIE: Yeah.

KATE: I —

ANNMARIE: Yeah.

KATE: — every day, whether it's this podcast or it's even writing fluffy contemporary romance books —

ANNMARIE: No.

KATE: — (00:09:00) "can I help someone have a better day?" And so I am being in service, but —

ANNMARIE: Yeah.

KATE: — for whatever reason, that word triggers so hard in me, and I think it's exactly what you said there — is culturally, both men and women, but really women, have been told that the way they move through the world is to serve other people. And so —

ANNMARIE: Yeah.

KATE: — we need to take a step back and be able to think about what it is that we want, what I —

ANNMARIE: The podcast that came out the day before we're recording this was about "is it really that you can't afford something, or are you really worried you don't deserve it?" So —

KATE: Yep.

ANNMARIE: — it's coming together, and it —

KATE: Yep.

ANNMARIE: — connects to that creativity and play, because obviously —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — this is another way of saying taking time for yourself. But —

KATE: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

ANNMARIE: Let's go back to the Grandma Project. So this ties to both what we were just talking about and the Grandma Project. So if women are listening and they've read The Happiness Project, or they have an idea that they're excited about but they keep talking themselves out of it, (00:10:00) do you have any words of advice for diving in?

KATE: Well, I'd love to say just go for it, but I also understand that, you know, it's like time, energy, money — all the things can be a barrier, and it's really easy to talk yourself out of it. But one thing that I've had to figure out is, like, I get tons of ideas, and I also have bounced from job to job. I was trained as a teacher, and then when my kids came along, I stayed home with them, but I was always doing something on the side — always. And then I've just continued to bounce, and that's been something I've had to reconcile with, if that's an okay thing to do. I'm still working on being okay with that. But I guess what I would say is that you can try it on, and you can also let it sit and simmer for a minute, you know, without letting go of it.

I have a little notebook that I've started because I get, you know, ideas all the time. I'm going to think, "Oh, I'm going to do (00:11:00) this," and then it can become a business. You know, like, that's something that I have a really hard time with — is not just doing something for the fun of it, doing an idea because it came and I think it would be fun and enjoyable, and not having it go off into next steps and five years down the road and all of the things.

But if you can just find a way to start by experimenting or tipping your toe in — lots of ideas can be just, like, a lot smaller and a lot simpler. And if you need a partner to do it, to get you boosted to, you know, go for it, that can help.

But I'm finding that I need to find the difference between when an idea comes and it comes from an outside need, and I think, "Oh, I can fill that need. I'll do this idea" — versus, "This idea is for me. Like, I'm — this idea came. I'm interested in it. I really want to do this for myself and see where it goes." So that's something that through this project I've been figuring out (00:12:00) too — is sort of like, when to follow the spark and when to notice that it came because I'm such a good problem solver and I'm such a good fixer, and — is that actually what I want to do, you know? So, so that's been a little bit of a lesson through this project and through growing up, so —

ANNMARIE: We have that in common, and I have bounced from many jobs too, and some of it is because we can do a lot of things.

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: I have had a somewhat recent diagnosis of some sort of neurospiciness, whether it's ADHD —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — or that spectrum, and it's funny how that's almost a relief, right?

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: Like, okay, that's the way my brain works.

KATE: Yeah. Yeah.

ANNMARIE: And what I can do best is if there's six pieces to the puzzle laying on the table, I can put them together. But —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — I don't need to make a business out of it, which —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — is a lesson I've learned.

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: One of the best (00:13:00) lessons I got about that was — it's been several years now, but I was talking to a friend who — Kate and I live in a town where there are two liberal arts colleges, so if you throw something, you're going to hit a PhD.

KATE: Right.

ANNMARIE: And one of my friends, who is a professor, was sitting in her office one day and she said, "I used you as an example in my class today," and she's a psychology professor. And I thought, "Oh. Oh, no. Where is this going to go?" 'Cause — "crazy" is maybe not the right word, but close.

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: And so I braced myself for what was going to come, because I didn't —

KATE: Mm-hmm.

ANNMARIE: — expect it to be a nice thing. And I said, "What did — what were you teaching about?" And she said, "I told people that I have this friend who is not afraid to try anything. She will do —"

KATE: Mm-hmm. Right.

ANNMARIE: She's —

KATE: Right.

ANNMARIE: — going to her deathbed wondering —

KATE: Right. Right.

ANNMARIE: — "what if I did that." And —

KATE: Right.

ANNMARIE: — that was a good way for me to reframe it, and then —

KATE: Mm-hmm.

ANNMARIE: — reflect on what you did. It doesn't have to become a business.

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: We can just do this, and it doesn't have to monetize (00:14:00) itself.

KATE: Creativity, downtime — it shouldn't have to be, "How am I going to optimize this? How am I going to monetize" —

ANNMARIE: Yeah.

KATE: — it. And that's my lesson. I can hear —

ANNMARIE: Yeah.

KATE: — it too, but I —

ANNMARIE: Yeah.

KATE: — have to, because I can see how to monetize it.

ANNMARIE: Yeah, exactly.

KATE: That doesn't mean I should, that type of —

ANNMARIE: Yeah, exactly. You did say a couple things I just want to reiterate, and the first thing I wrote was, try it on. So give the idea a go. Let it simmer without letting it go. That's the piece. We live in this black-and-white world where it's, "I'm either going to go all in or I'm not going to do it." I love the idea of just letting it simmer while having a holding space for it. I think that's a great thing to do, whether you're trying a new job or a new hobby or "can I make this into a business?" Whatever it is. Even if it's, "Hey, I've always thought that maybe I wanted to play pickleball. Do I really?"

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: Something as simple as that. But — now, most of the time when I start these Play Dates, I ask people if they consider themselves somebody who (00:15:00) plays. And because I wanted to focus in on the Grandma Project, I just —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — I'm interested — I kind of want to know what play looked like for you growing up, and even more specifically, if it included any of the things you tried while working on the Grandma Project. Since you lived so close to your grandmothers, did you —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — play with them when you were a kid?

KATE: Yeah. Yeah. So I grew up, I said, in a small, small town in southeastern Minnesota, and I grew up on a farm. I actually grew up on the farm that my Grandma H was raised on, and then my dad, and then me. And so I had a lot of space and a lot of time to play outside. And I saw my grandma gardening at the farm, which is one of the months that I did.

I saw her — I guess I just saw her being outside no matter where she was. She was so active. And what I did, playing and growing up, was a lot of building forts. I had some cousins that were super creative and would (00:16:00) come down from the cities, and we would make puppet plays and put on plays and dress up and build forts and ride the horses from one fort to another.

And so I did a lot of outdoor play, but I saw my Grandma H doing so many active sports and active things. She golfed until she couldn't — I mean, she golfed for years and years. I didn't golf with her. But we always had softball games in the backyard and softball games at family gatherings, and she was there at my dad's softball games cheering them on.

So there were lots of things of, you know, my grandma being around, but sport was a lot of play in my family. But I also played with a dollhouse, and I liked to create and craft and do a ton of things like that. And I think before doing the project, I didn't think of my Grandma H as being that creative. I guess I thought of her as always so active. But doing the project... She had photo books like crazy and, I (00:17:00) think, oh my gosh, she was super creative in all the ways that she gardened and all the things she did.

And then the other part is that my Grandma B was a lot more in the home, and I spent a lot of time with her. She worked from home at one point in her life, and I would wait for her to be done with her lunch or to be ready for lunch, and then we would play cards. We had so many laughs playing Go to the Dump and Gin Rummy, and — I was a kindergartner, and she was my daycare on the off days that I didn't go to kindergarten, and she took time to play. And we sat on the floor, and she got down there with me.

Just those ideas of them taking time and either watching them do their own hobby and play, or having it be, yeah, something that they did with me, so —

ANNMARIE: Do you think that type of play from your grandmothers translated into you with your own kids?

KATE: Yeah, for sure. For sure. I really can be structured and organized and all of those things, and I think we had a (00:18:00) household that ran that way as far as, okay, we're going to eat around this time, and we know what we're going to have for dinner and, you know, all of that.

But I'm recognizing so much of that structure just allowed then for the times off to be more playful, and I always love to have music on in the house. I see my kids dancing, you know, as soon as we have music on at dinner time or getting ready for dinner. I think there was a season there where it was, you know, difficult for me to feel playful, and I think "fun" and "play" — those words have been a little tricky for me because I do take on that responsible, kind of dependable role.

But I'm really enjoying myself when I'm playful and when I let myself be. And so I just had my nephew stay for a few nights, and playing with a first grader is just delightful. Just to take his lead, be right there, laugh, see if I could get him to laugh. It can be a lot of fun. (00:19:00)

ANNMARIE: We talk every once in a while on the podcast about how it's so easy to play when we have the excuse of kids or grandkids. And —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — that's part of it, and then learning how to translate that. But honestly, I — you know, as I've said many times on the podcast now — that I'm not a parent, but that doesn't mean I don't like kids.

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: They have played a big role in my life, and there is nothing more fun than watching a kid play, because they're doing it with wild abandon.

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: They don't know any of the rules, especially as first graders, right? I —

KATE: Yeah. Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — mean, they lose a little bit of that. But to just watch that kind of level of creative play with really no boundaries, especially to their imagination, is... it's amazing to watch, but it's also enlightening. I try and —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — take a lesson from that all the time — oh, what if you played like that?

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: There are no rules against it, but culturally we have —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — decided there is.

KATE: Yeah. Yeah.

ANNMARIE: For sure.

ANNMARIE: So you've mentioned quite a few things already — the golf, (00:20:00) the card games, the sports — but I think if I'm remembering, you also mentioned things like contra dancing and sauerkraut making.

KATE: Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. So I had, you know, 12 months, and I paired an activity or a pastime with also an intention. So when I did golf, the intention was actually confidence and strength — mostly confidence, because it was something I really had no experience with. I would golf once a month or once a year, and that was it.

But yeah, some of the things I had tried before — I had not done a lot of canning or pickling, but because sauerkraut was a big deal in my family, like at Thanksgiving they would make something called sauerkraut soup, which sounds not tasty, but, you know, it was a tradition. And so I was like, "Well, I know Grandma had a crock, and I think she had a rock, and she had some kind of a something that went over the..." (00:21:00) And so I was like, "I'm going to figure this out," and that was an adventure. But yeah, again, it was a month of canning and pickling, doing things that I hadn't really tried before.

ANNMARIE: I didn't know you tied an intention to it. I'd missed —

KATE: Yeah. Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — that. Love, love that.

KATE: I am a —

ANNMARIE: Yeah.

KATE: — big believer in intentions. But I'm actually curious if any of the activities surprised you, like —

Ah, yeah — from a standpoint of, "this is more fun than I thought," or "I'm really learning something from this," or any of those things.

Yeah. Yeah. So it wasn't that I was acting like my grandmas. It wasn't like I was trying to be and do what they did. I knew I had to make it work for me. And so my Grandma B always made her sandwich and came and sat in her La-Z-Boy and watched Days of Our Lives. And so there was a month where I took that daily pause and I started watching Days of Our Lives, and I was like, (00:22:00) "I can't do this. I can't do it. I'm sorry." It's just too — I don't... it was just, I couldn't get into it.

I still took the time each day to have that daily pause. I tried some different shows. I tried some other things. I maybe read. But I took that daily pause. It was funny how some of the things just didn't fit anymore, or I had outgrown, or I just needed to tweak — and yet I could still get the feeling or the intention behind it, which was great.

I was not surprised, because like we've said before, structure is really something that I lean into. But I took a month of doing rituals and routines, and so my Grandma B washed — laundry on Monday, ironing on Tuesday. She always ordered in burgers from our little town drive-up on Fridays. So I had a schedule, and the whole month, pizza was Wednesday night, and I washed on, you know, a certain (00:23:00) day, and I told my son, "This is the day I'm doing laundry. If you need help with yours, that's it." And —

We had brunches on Sundays. It was just like having that structure through the week and through the month just took actually a load off. Like, I couldn't just go put a load of laundry in while I went off to do this other thing, and I didn't just stop there. You know, I didn't have to think about the groceries. Like, I didn't have to on Wednesday morning think, "Well, what are we going to have for dinner tonight?" It was like, that's already set. So the freedom that it gave by having some of those pieces just put in place during the week really was helpful. And, you know, again, I can lean into structure really easily.

So now it's finding a balance of — how many of those do I want to keep, and does it always have to be the same day of the week, or can I just keep that sort of intention of it just being more of, like, "No, I'm going to do this now and just get it done, and (00:24:00) then I'm going to move on." Or, "I'm going to know that this is set and then I'm free to have more play and more creativity in the open times." So yeah, I figured I could really lean into that month, but I also was surprised by how helpful it was.

ANNMARIE: I love the idea — and I've tried this myself as well — is, instead of eschewing schedule altogether, is the schedule actually going to open up time for me to have more joy, more wonder, more play?

KATE: Yeah. Yeah.

ANNMARIE: That's what I'm hearing.

KATE: Yep.

ANNMARIE: And I love the idea also of not doing exactly what your grandmothers did, but using it as the intention.

I too once watched Days of Our Lives religiously. My college friends and I actually scheduled our classes around —

KATE: Yeah. Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — that day.

KATE: Yep.

ANNMARIE: I've gone back a couple of times, and I'm like, "How could you watch this?" And no shame to anybody —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — who watches it, but —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — for me, too, the same with you, was — yes, (00:25:00) it was the show, but it was such a bonding moment —

KATE: Mm-hmm.

ANNMARIE: — for those of us that sat down, and it was a —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — break from classes, from homework —

KATE: Yes.

ANNMARIE: Yeah, how do you find that space inside a day?

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: Whether it's about play or creativity or joy or wonder — whatever we're talking about — it's better if you're finding a little bit of it every day.

KATE: Yep, for sure — it doesn't matter what you're doing, but I do think committing to that intention of having a break at a certain time. I watch Jeopardy every day at 4:30 —

ANNMARIE: Oh, awesome.

KATE: — and there was a time where I felt guilty. I'm like, "First of all, that is the end of the workday, and I am self-employed. You do not need to feel guilty." But all of a sudden it became — oh, no, this is that schedule that then allows me to have a transition time between work and having an evening with my husband or getting outside.

ANNMARIE: Right. I love that. And it also makes me think a little bit... I had you send me a bio, and I do that with (00:26:00) everybody, just so I can kind of see how a —

KATE: Mm-hmm.

ANNMARIE: — person describes themselves.

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: And there was a line in it that said that you think there's a theme running through your life, and it's the dance between holding on and letting go. And a little bit of allowing yourself what you've just talked about is both. Do you think that play fits into that dance for you — that dance between holding on and letting go?

KATE: Yeah. Like I said earlier, it's like play and fun, being the fun one, or being playful — just those ideas. That part of my identity felt a little bit lost for a while because I just over-identified with the other. And so it's kind of like, how can you hold on to, "Yes, I'm responsible. Yes, I am dependable. Yes, I am, you know, someone who can spend time problem-solving or organizing or this and that," but also — I can let go a little bit (00:27:00) of that and open up more playfulness. I mean, just even working with someone on decluttering, and it's like taking time to give high fives, taking time to just laugh about something.

That's been sort of a lesson, a theme running through — is just this, like, holding on but not so tightly. And, you know, a lot of this work of the year, I guess, in doing the project just really allowed me to feel a little bit more peace and maybe acceptance around lots of the parts of myself that didn't feel like they maybe fit into my small town or fit in with pieces of my family. And so it was kind of like, okay, well, I can still hold on to a lot of this, and I can let go of some of those old feelings or beliefs, or, you know, let it — have it fit a little bit better with who I am now.

ANNMARIE: I love all of that. (00:28:00) And I think a couple of things I pulled out of that is — first of all, from one introvert to another, sometimes when you're shy and introverted, it's even harder to let those parts of your personality out. Or if you're somebody who's driven and structural, you want to make sure you're doing the right job. Say you're helping somebody declutter — let's... I value their time. Let's get —

KATE: Yes, exactly. Yep.

ANNMARIE: — it done. But when you realize that, oh, this actually makes it more fun for both of us —

KATE: Mm-hmm. Yep.

ANNMARIE: — letting that go, I think, is really good. I have started to say something, and it's really interesting to watch people's reaction to it. I am a weird individual, and I always have been, whether it's the neurodivergence or the only-child of me — I don't know what it is.

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: But I now say I embrace my odd, because I'm tired of what you're talking about, and —

KATE: Mm-hmm.

ANNMARIE: — trying to figure out who somebody needs me to be or the way I fit in. And the ironic part of that, to make this full circle, is the harder I try at that, the less fun I have in life. (00:29:00)

KATE: Yeah, exactly. And then you burn out.

ANNMARIE: Yeah. And I think the other thing that came through is — yes, this project is specific to you, but it also can feel so universal, because all of us have people who've shaped our stories, right? Whether we realize it or not — that person you meet for 20 minutes can have a profound effect on you, but also your grandmothers who you were spending so much time with growing up. So when you're talking about figuring out that, oh, this fits and that doesn't fit based on my upbringing, do you think that we miss anything if we stop being curious about where we came from? It's a deeper question for sure.

KATE: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yes, for sure. I mean, I feel like there's been a lot of seasons in my life where I... especially going off to college and kind of nobody really relating to someone from a small town. Like, they just didn't understand it. And so there's been a lot of times in my life where I felt like (00:30:00) I just can't connect, or you're not going to understand my story really. Like, everyone knowing your whole history before you even meet them — not very many people understand that about small-town living. And so, you know, I got to college and had to learn how to really greet someone because it just isn't...

Everyone knows who you are, who you came from, how you're connected to the community. And so there were lots of times where I think I've thought back on that with sort of, like, mixed emotions about what kind of childhood that was or what kind of upbringing. But also then, now, looking back and finding the gratitude and finding a lot of the really great parts. It was hard to say I'm not going to go back to my community and live there when, you know, that was the community that really held me and helped me grow. (00:31:00) And so anyway, there's been lots of feelings around it. But I feel like when you aren't curious about what things were kind of baked in from growing up, from your upbringing, you don't get a chance to see the full picture of — look at where I've come from and where I am now.

And I feel like, oh, at 50, shouldn't you have this figured out? But I feel like I'm just continuing to peel back layers and find some of those things from childhood that did light me up, and remembering those and maybe trying them on again. And then also just letting some of the other stuff that doesn't fit me anymore go a little bit more easily. But if I didn't take time to get curious about that, I don't know — there's a lot of feelings that I think just have felt muddled that I really still needed to kind of dig into a little bit. So —

ANNMARIE: And you feel like you did that through this project? Or was that an ongoing process, or did the project (00:32:00) really help you dig into that?

KATE: I think... when my Grandma B passed, it was kind of complicated — a lot of grief around her dying with Alzheimer's and just a really hard end. And I had felt like, okay, I've gotta find a way to process this. And so I started writing. And from there, I started writing a lot about our relationship, but also about my small town and things like that. And I think doing some of that writing, and then taking steps away from it — like sort of taking a class where I pretty much was crafting a memoir about her and about small town and lots of things. And then taking a step back and going, "Okay, now how do I feel about it now, that writing?" And continuing to sort of, yeah, explore holding onto that past and then also letting it go, and, like, what stage am I at now? And so I've been writing and crafting essays about those (00:33:00) feelings and the people and things like that for a little while.

And then this project came, and it was like, okay, well, now I'm going to focus really on me in this story alongside my grandma. But it's kind of like — where am I in this? And who am I now?

ANNMARIE: It sounds both cathartic and creative. Would you agree?

KATE: I just finished the project a month ago, and so I'm still going to be processing. I feel like I don't even know half of what I learned through it all. But I do — yeah, I feel a lot lighter coming out on this other side, and it might have to do with having a birthday. I'm not sure. But I do feel... yeah, I feel lighter. I feel, yeah, I feel — well, I feel proud of myself. I mean, my gosh, I was sticking with something, taking risks. Like, I don't know how to golf. I took a lesson. I went golfing by myself. You know, just lots of things. I just took a lot of risks, (00:34:00) and they might not seem like big risks — to watch Days of Our Lives — but, you know, it's like, no, taking a break culturally is really not something people do, you know? And to even just say, "I'm going to take a year and do this," is not something everybody can do. And I understand I have the ability to have a more flexible lifestyle, and can spend time on things. But I'm just growing more into myself is what I guess it feels like after this project.

ANNMARIE: I love that. And I love that you did the doing —

KATE: Yep.

ANNMARIE: — and the processing —

KATE: Yep.

ANNMARIE: — will come out of what will come out of it. Whether you decide you're going to write that memoir —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — or to do something else with it —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — there are so many opportunities. Or you do nothing with it. This is —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — a reminder that we don't have to monetize —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — everything. There's so much that can come out of this as you sit with it, I can imagine. And I love a good synergy. And I know you've spent quite a while now where (00:35:00) you help people sort through physical belongings, do the organizing, and this feels like you've spent a year sorting through family stories and memories and maybe inherited experiences. Do you feel the connection between those two things?

KATE: Yeah. Yeah. I just feel like in decluttering work, you're really trying to get to the heart of what does all this represent, or what did it represent, and is it still true for you now? And do you need this stuff in order for that — either memory or that belief or whatever it was — kind of holding, do you still need this stuff in order to feel that, or to identify with it, or to connect with it, or to carry it through into this next part of your life? And before I started this project, I was reading all of my old journals and looking back at my old elementary school things, and I had done these photo projects for both of my grandmas.

And so it's like (00:36:00) kind of decluttering and peeling back — well, what do I really need out of this? What do I really want to take out of this? What are the highlights and what are the things that, you know, things I can leave behind? A lot of these projects didn't really involve physical stuff. I mean, yes, I went bowling and I used a bowling ball, but it's not like I have a bowling ball or have my grandma's bowling ball. But I still could feel, doing this project, I just got closer and closer to feeling like they were one on each side of my shoulder, and it was like they were there with me.

And I guess when I work with people decluttering, there's often a lot of grief in the things, and I think that's why it's held — is it's like they haven't had a chance to really give it time, or to give themselves time. Like, you know, they might keep all these things that they think represent them, but they haven't really had time to think about — does it represent me and the story of my life?

(00:37:00) And so I just felt like this project gave me time to really figure out what about those relationships with my grandmas I want to keep taking, and I'm grateful that decluttering has really helped me continue to find out how to do that.

ANNMARIE: That's the dance between holding on and letting go, right?

KATE: Exactly. Yeah.

ANNMARIE: It's right there because I —

KATE: Yep.

ANNMARIE: — you know?

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: Everything we've talked about has a little bit of that flavor through —

KATE: Yep.

ANNMARIE: — it, which I love.

KATE: Yep.

ANNMARIE: And now, as we get towards the end here — what's the biggest thing you learned about yourself through this process? You've mentioned several things, but is there a point that stands out for you?

KATE: Hmm. I think, yeah — again, I still feel like I'm going to be processing this for a little bit, but I think one of the big things that I learned is that I had a lot more in common with my grandmas, both of them, than I maybe thought. My (00:38:00) Grandma H, during my childhood, she would go to Florida for six months, and so I didn't get to spend as much time with her. And when she was home, she was so — like I said, she was so active. She was gardening, she was dancing, she was golfing, she was always busy and very independent. And so to find a way in with her — God, it was hard. It was hard to find a way in, because she just was going to do it herself and go, go, go. And I can now find so many things that I'm like, "Well, that's Grandma H in me."

And I'm finding that Grandma B had so many routines and so many things that added structure to her life, so that she could be available to connect with her family. Like, that was really, really important to her — so she was always available when I would stop by. And, you know, she'd put things down and be able to really sit and chat, and, like I said, play cards with me. So I'm finding now, at this stage of my life, (00:39:00) I really — my kids are out of school, I'm really ready to be there when they're ready to connect, and to be, like, ready to delight in them. And I feel like I can see that in my Grandma B — just her delight in her family and in being available for them and connecting.

So I guess I found that there were a lot of things that I really can identify with, and that connect me more than I thought. I think I always was like, "I don't know how I fit in here." I think I was comparing a lot — like, "I'm not as athletic as, you know, some of these people in my family," or "I don't do this," or "Oh, that's not..." You know. And I'm like, well, actually, there's a lot of things that really did run right down the line, you know, right to me. And without doing this project, I wouldn't have felt that feeling of these grandmas on my shoulders, and I do. I can feel them, and so that's really — (00:40:00) yeah, it feels good.

ANNMARIE: There's a couple of big blessings in there, and one of them is that you saw the delight in those women taking time for you — it wasn't duty. So many —

KATE: Hmm.

ANNMARIE: — of us, as women, it's our duty to take care of other people, right?

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: But it sounds like they did it from a joy standpoint, not from a duty standpoint, and that's something that you'll get to carry forward with your kids, too. It's —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — not "I have to drop everything because it's my kids" —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — but "I want to set these things aside" —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — because that connection with my —

KATE: Mm-hmm.

ANNMARIE: — kids, or whoever it may be, right?

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — is what matters, and that can —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — be a good lesson for all of us, because so —

KATE: Right.

ANNMARIE: — often we think about what's on the to-do list —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — and I've really tried in my life. Now, again, you said you have more flexibility than some. Now, what you were doing could be done on nights and weekends, too, if —

KATE: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — somebody is working, but I always give that excuse, too — I'm self-employed, and I don't (00:41:00) have kids, so everybody —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — thinks I have unending time.

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: But if you're somebody who likes structure especially, or if you're somebody who's been — I come — my parents were farm kids —

KATE: Mm-hmm.

ANNMARIE: — so I come from that, where your family came from too, where there's always something to do —

KATE: Mm-hmm.

ANNMARIE: — you've gotta get it done, and it's —

KATE: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

ANNMARIE: — hard to set that aside. But that's not real for me anymore. So —

KATE: Yeah, right.

ANNMARIE: — I set that aside. I'm like — I want you to stop and think that nothing comes before people.

KATE: Hmm.

ANNMARIE: If somebody asks you for help, you do it —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — within reason, obviously. There are —

KATE: Right.

ANNMARIE: — limits, like, I'm not going to cancel a doctor's appointment if somebody wants to —

KATE: Yeah. Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — do something else, but I just think that lesson coming out of that blessing of seeing people do things out of joy, not duty, is so strong.

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: And my second point is now completely gone from my brain.

KATE: I'm not the only one.

ANNMARIE: No, it'll (00:42:00) come back. But yeah — so I asked this earlier in our conversation, but if somebody's being pulled toward a small curiosity like this that they can't explain, what would you leave them with if we leave them with this today?

KATE: Hmm. Yeah. I think I would just say, try to find a way to experiment with it, or just try it on even in a small way. I think those sparks come for a reason, and you're not going to know what that reason is until you dip your toe in. And this was a big project — it was a year — but that doesn't mean that you can't find a smaller way to bring something into your life. And my month of dance was so fun because I tried a lot of different kinds of dance. I went to Zumba, I went to contra dance, we went to a big band at the actual ballroom that my grandma used to go to, the Surf Ballroom. (00:43:00) Yeah. And so I did lots of things that were kind of like big-deal things, but then I joined a dance class that's once a week and kept doing that. And so, you won't know until you try where something's going to lead. And I have to tell this to myself all the time, but I don't have to know the end game.

Like trying to golf — it was like, I don't have enough money for golf lessons, or golf bags, or even clubs. You know, it was like, "All the equipment I need, how am I going to do this?" But honestly, I started with, "I'm going to do it," and someone was able to loan me clubs, and then I went for a lesson and decided to spend the money on that. And the instructor said, "Oh, I have a pair of clubs just sitting in my garage." And, you know, they were so inexpensive, and just things continued to line up that allowed this to move forward. So just having a little, you know, giving yourself the courage — whether you have to get a partner to help you, say you can do it, (00:44:00) telling them your idea.

I did tell my husband — I actually prefaced it by, "I'm going to tell you about this, but I don't want any feedback." And I did that because it felt so tender to me. It felt right, but it also felt tender, and I didn't want anybody else's ideas to muddle it. And so I didn't want him to start giving me ideas of what to do each month. I just wanted to let it marinate, but I wanted someone else to say, "Yeah, you can do that." And sometimes that's, you know, what you need — is just someone to say, "I could see you doing that," or "You can do that," or "Give it a try." So you might need to also just share your little idea so that you can have a cheerleader.

ANNMARIE: I love the idea of prefacing it with, "I'm going to share this idea, but I don't want any feedback right now," which I —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — probably should do too, because people will automatically tell you what's wrong or what's dangerous or why you —

KATE: Yep. Yep, exactly.

ANNMARIE: — shouldn't. And I think they do it out of care (00:45:00) for the —

KATE: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

ANNMARIE: — parent, a sibling, whatever it may —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — be — "Oh, no, you shouldn't do that," or, "Do —"

KATE: Yep.

ANNMARIE: — "you really need to do that?"

KATE: Yep.

ANNMARIE: Whatever it may be, and they mean it most times —

KATE: Mm-hmm.

ANNMARIE: — from their heart, but it does shut you down a little bit.

And the other question that popped up for me was, "Can I give myself a reason that will help me override the fear of stepping outside of my comfort zone?"

KATE: Mm-hmm.

ANNMARIE: I think that would've helped push me through in many things.

KATE: Yeah — like, "I'm just too tired to go to dance class tonight." Oh —

ANNMARIE: Yep.

KATE: — but I committed to this, and I committed to my family. I committed —

ANNMARIE: Yeah.

KATE: — to going through with this.

ANNMARIE: Mm-hmm. I love that. Is there anything that you started doing during this year that you're going to keep doing?

KATE: Well, it's funny — we got to the end of May, and my husband, we were sitting... we're continuing to try to still have, like, a brunch on Sundays. I just feel like that's a way for our family to connect, and it's a good time for us (00:46:00) to connect. So we were sitting and having a brunch, and he just said, "I'm really sad to let this project go." And it's like, it's not his project — it's my project. But just the things that we did together, and the risks we took, and the new things we tried — that's not going to go away. I think this season of life is about having more time without the sports of the kids and without the school schedule and all of the things.

So that's for sure a part of the project that'll stay — is making time to go to the driving range, or trying to figure out maybe we could take a dance lesson, or some of those things are going to stick. And, like I said, I did start taking a dance class through the arts guild in town, and I hope to keep doing that. It's a great group, and it's a lot of fun. Yeah, there are a lot of things. I mean, I think I'll be doing some more (00:47:00) pickling and canning this year than I have ever done before, because it's not that big a deal. Like, yes, it takes some prep, but the rewards are so great. Like, I made jelly, and I'd never done that before, and everyone in my family loved it, and that's something I want to taste again this summer.

So yeah, there are a lot of things that will keep going — not the full intensity of what I was doing in the month, but on a little bit lighter, more gentle scale. And yeah, that feels good.

ANNMARIE: I think the piece in that last statement — with your husband commenting, "I'm not sure if I'm ready to be done with this" — is that you may not go forward with anything we set up in a project like this, or what we start with, but what you did is you built a habit for play and joy.

KATE: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

ANNMARIE: And things in there that made your life better, or stronger, or more fun in a —

KATE: Mm-hmm.

ANNMARIE: — way that you're not going to give up now, and I —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — love that.

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: And I hope that a lot of the women listening can really relate to this, because we all spend years (00:48:00) being responsible, productive, practical, useful, and somewhere along the way we stop following those little sparks you're talking about. And that's what I would like people to take from this — is that even though something might not make sense on paper, like a dance class... though I do have to admit, I'm sitting here, and I'm looking at you, and I'm like, "You're tall and you're thin. You could tell everybody that you were a ballerina at one point, and nobody would ever dispute it." So you could just go with it.

KATE: But you know what? I always dreamed of dancing as a child, like from being really young. And then my body grew, and I was like, "I don't have the body for this." Like, honestly, that's been a whole route, you know? And here I am back — like, I took one class as a kindergartner in a tutu and whatever, and that was it. And now to be able to say, "No, you are 50 and you love to dance. You can dance. You can dance no matter what size this body is and how it..." Yeah. So —

ANNMARIE: Who cares if you're great at it?

KATE: Yeah. That's the (00:49:00) piece for me sometimes — there's always this thing that pops in my head that says, "What if you're not good at it?"

ANNMARIE: Yep. Like, that's —

KATE: Yeah.

ANNMARIE: — where I am, in this decade of my life. So I want to thank you for being here. I know this is a personal project, and you spoke so openly about it, and I really appreciate that. And for me, I want to take away that sometimes the most meaningful adventures are those that begin with a question that won't leave us alone. So if you have that question — just do it.

And for everyone listening, if this conversation did stir something in you — I hope it did — a memory or an idea or a curiosity you've been setting aside, I'm going to invite you to go check out The Wonder Project, which is my free series of small invitations that is designed to help you reconnect with creativity, play, wonder, and the parts of yourself that may have gotten buried under the responsibilities of adult life. You can think of it as a little nudge from me, and from (00:50:00) Kate — I'm going to throw her in on this.

KATE: For sure.

ANNMARIE: You can find that all at annmarieboyle.com/thewonderproject, or I'll also link it in the show notes. So until next time — stay curious. And go play.

I Used to Be Fun is hosted by Annmarie Boyle. New episodes drop weekly.

Music from Uppbeat (https://uppbeat.io/t/soundroll/to-the-top), License code BC9SEN3G6PMABOA